14-11-2022  (504 lectures) Categoria: 16mm

16mm - 35mm

This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2 3
Author Topic: 16/35mm Projector?
Bill Enos
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From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
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 - posted 03-09-2002 12:41 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (7:41 AM Local)      Profile for Bill Enos Email Bill Enos Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
I ran a 20 min 16mm short a few days ago for a local semi pro. film maker. He asked why we had a 16mm only machine instead of having one of our XLs set up to do both. I've never heard of a 16/35 projector. Does or has such a machine existed?

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Olympia, Wash. USA
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 - posted 03-09-2002 12:49 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (7:49 AM Local)      Profile for Ken Layton Email Ken Layton Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Philips/Norelco/Kinoton had model FP-28 that was 16mm on the left side of the machine and 35mm on the right.

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Steve Kraus
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 - posted 03-09-2002 12:59 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (7:59 AM Local)      Profile for Steve Kraus Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
The only machine I've ever seen that had 16mm and 35mm in the same path (as opposed to the left side / right side Norelco/Kinotone) was a MagnaTech machine made for mixing stages. The film components were very obviously Norelco in origin so I'm not sure if there is perhaps a common path Norelco but this machine was a specialty unit, with stepper drives that could reposition the film at high speed by rolling it non-intermittently through the gate before resuming its normal projection. The controls were similar to an MTE dubber and it interlocked directly with them. As with a dubber the 16mm portion of the drive sprockets was only a bit smaller than the 35mm section--they were simply driven more slowly in 16mm mode. But the intermittent sprocket had a size differential that was in proportion to the differing amount of film to advance per frame and thus the 16mm section was way down in the middle of the 35mm part; you could easily not even notice it was down there.

I rather doubt your client ever saw 35/16 on anything resembling a conventional theatre projector.

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Scott Norwood
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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
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 - posted 03-09-2002 01:07 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (8:07 AM Local)      Profile for Scott Norwood Author's Homepage Email Scott Norwood Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
There's a single-path 16/35 Kinoton that is a current model. The 16mm soundhead is _above_ the gate and the sound is delayed digitally to match the picture. The concept seems weird, but apparently it works.

There was (is?) also some weird Russian (?) 16/35 machine that I have never actually seen, but I once saw some poorly xeroxed schematics for it. If anyone has more info on this, I would be interested.

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Richard Fowler
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 - posted 03-09-2002 01:16 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (8:16 AM Local)      Profile for Richard Fowler Email Richard Fowler Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
Ernemann has for many years offered a 16/35mm projector....by rotating a knob the 16mm components and soundhead would shift into the path.
Tokiwa of Japan has a 16/35 available which involves sliding a 16mm mechanism in the light path of the existing 35mm. Inchol in Brazil made a unit from 1960 to 1990 which was a combination projector with the same threading path since the 16mm gate was recessed within the 35mm trap and the xenon lamphouse had a sliding light table to focus for 16mm or 35mm.....many of these are still in use in government agencies.
Richard Fowler...just off the plane from ShoWest
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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John Walsh
Film God

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 - posted 03-09-2002 07:58 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (2:58 PM Local)      Profile for John Walsh Email John Walsh Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Richard is correct; the Ernemann 15 is convertable.

I saw an FP-28 while on a cruise ship, although I think most of them have been replaced with video projectors by now.

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Dunfermline, Scotland
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 - posted 03-09-2002 09:07 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (4:07 PM Local)      Profile for Pete Naples Email Pete Naples Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
I installed a 16/35 Ernemman last year, lovely machine. The sprockets are dual profile, save for the intermittent (there are seperate units for 35 and 16mm). Also hase separate sound heads, both are Raytheon laser units, it also has a Dolby SR.D basement reader.

To change from 35 to 16, all that is required is to change the gate/trap assembly (one screw), rotate the turret to bring the 16mm lens into position and to thread the 16mm film accordingly. The projector makes all the adjustments to speed, take-up, sound etc.

There's a 'back to back' Kinoton 35/16 in Edinburgh, about 3 years old, although it's not really a dual gauge machine. It's two machines glued together. Must be quite expensive as you have two projectors, two lamphouses and two rectifiers. It has also been somewhat temperamental.

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Serge Bosschaerts
Film Handler

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From: Schoten, Belgium
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 - posted 03-09-2002 11:50 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (6:50 PM Local)      Profile for Serge Bosschaerts Author's Homepage Email Serge Bosschaerts Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
Bauer have also made a 16/35mm projector, the U 4 Combi with a Bauer Selekton II O head on the left for 16mm, sharing the same lamphouse, aprox. 40 machines produced.
Even more rare is the Bauer U4 C Combi also with Selekton II O head for 16mm on the left but on the right 35/70 mm combi head from the U3, aprox. 20 machines produced.

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Leo Enticknap
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 - posted 03-11-2002 03:47 AM Central (GMT -6:00)  (10:47 AM Local)      Profile for Leo Enticknap Author's Homepage Email Leo Enticknap Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Pete's point that maintanence and repair of FP-anythings is not for the faint-hearted (or pocketed), but IMHO the FP-18 gives quite simply the best picture of any 16mm machine I've ever encountered - so stable it looks nailed to the screen, and the mechanism is very kind to shrunk and brittle film stock, too.

Given that (as discussed in another thread) 16mm is now effectively a 'legacy format' as far as cinema exhibition is concerned, then for me this is a major point in favour of FPs. I can't comment on Ernemanns as I've never used one and (AFAIK) have never seen a film projected by one.

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Pete Naples
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From: Dunfermline, Scotland
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 - posted 03-11-2002 12:49 PM Central (GMT -6:00)  (7:49 PM Local)      Profile for Pete Naples Email Pete Naples Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
The Erneman (spelling!) is mech that I've always thought of as being gentle on film, and gives a nice steady picture. In 35mm it uses velvet gate bands, I can't remember if that's true for 16 either. It's a sprocket 16mm mech, which is definitely better than the claw type of most machines. Take up is motorised and adjustable, as is star-up ramp, the motor being invertor controlled. If I had to pick, based on the experience I have of the two machines, I'd take the Erneman because I don't feel there's anything to choose between them performance wise, actualyl I take that back, I've always thought the Ernemans Raytheon sound head sounded better, probably due to the on board pre-amp and equalisation (I've never had to apply any slit loss eq' with these), but the Kinotons I've dealt with have been somewhat tempremental to say the least. One other little thing for us installers; if you tell Erneman what CP you will be using, and how far it will be from your projector, they supply a pre wired cable with the projector. To set up the 'A' chain with the two I've installed all that was required was to plug in both ends, set Dolby level, set SR.D frame delay and off you go! I checked the 'A' chain and reader alignment of both machines as they came out of the box, and couldn't fault them, in fact I felt that if I messed with it I'd probably make it worse. Quality engineering like this atttacts a quality price tag, but like everything else in life, you get what you pay for!

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Larry Shaw
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 - posted 03-14-2002 03:44 PM Central (GMT -6:00)  (10:44 PM Local)      Profile for Larry Shaw Author's Homepage Email Larry Shaw Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
There's a photo low on the http://www.blsi.com/kinoton/fp30e.htm page.
The back-to-back FP 38, and its predecessors, have been out of production for years.


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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 - posted 03-14-2002 06:47 PM Central (GMT -6:00)  (1:47 AM Local)      Profile for Steve Guttag Email Steve Guttag Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
There is nothing I have seen to lead me to believe that the Ernaman has ANYTHING over the Kinoton FP-38E. The current 16mm soundhead is better beyond description. It is a complete davis loop system that, quite frankly, rivals just about any soundhead 16, 35 or 70mm. The only thing I wish Kinoton would add the 16mm soundhead is a flywheel decoupler for reverse and/or shuttle operation. Currently, it only detensions. The current Kinoton preamps are also top notch with very nice, crisp sound not normally associated with typical 16mm.

35mm wise, the FP-38 will still spank the Ernaman in both picture and sound categories. Furthermore, the studio soundhead option will allow the flywheel to be accelerated prior to being engaged so there is no slipping on the film. Another big plus, the Kinoton doesn't use the Raytheon laser pick up!

Now I will give you that the older FP-16, FP-18 and FP-28 soundheads can be tempermental. While they certainly were capable of supurb sound they had to be messed with a bit too much to keep them that way. The preamps were also wanting, in my opinion, up until about 1993.

Also, I haven't found a non-American projector yet that has good changeovers.


"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 03-14-2002 07:40 PM Central (GMT -6:00)  (2:40 AM Local)      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen Email Mark Gulbrandsen Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
I have a Japaneese 16/35 machine that is quite unique. Both gauges run in the same film path. No double sided stuff for those guys! The sprockets are 16/35 and the 16mm gate which sits in front of the 35mm gate removes for 35mm operation. There is a seperate 16mm intermittent sprocket. The gear side looks like a Simplex X-L a bit. It also has a conical shutter. I think Steve G may have seen these as they were originally located near him. The 35mm performance is great. The 16mm performence is average.
Mark @ GTS

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Gordon McLeod
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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 03-14-2002 08:08 PM Central (GMT -6:00)  (3:08 AM Local)      Profile for Gordon McLeod Email Gordon McLeod Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
At one time ernamann had a 16mm attachment that was a standalone head that mounted in the 35mm lensmount on the ernamann VIIIb

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 03-14-2002 10:52 PM Central (GMT -6:00)  (5:52 AM Local)      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen Email Mark Gulbrandsen Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post
here is a link to pictures of A strange pair of Bauer projectors. They are a mirrored pair. http://www.kinoteam.de/kt/kt_pr_bau_b_11.html
Mark @ GTS



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