25-07-2014  (9699 lectures) Categoria: Senyera

Senyera vs. Tudor flag - Armada Invencible

Fa anys que explico a qui m'ho pregunta que les senyeres de l'epoca Tudor sobre fons platejat o blanc eren angleses (vegeu detall m茅s avall) S贸n l'origen de la bandera de la West indian Co. i m茅s tard de la bandera americana..

Per mostrar la diferencia amb la nostra vaig escanejar un llibre meu comprat a Foyles als anys 80. (t茅 una miqueta de moir猫 -interfer猫ncia entre ret铆cules-..)

Quadre escanejat on hi manca part de la senyera (llom del llibre) by M.C.

Senyera re-creada amb copy paste per聽 M.C.

Quadre amb menys ressoluci贸 on no hi manca la part de la senyera

Explicaci贸 by M.C.

Tudor Ensigns with red and white stripes

Source: These flags were shown on a painting of the H.M.S. Tiger by Van de Velde
The Flags of the World (1896) by Frederick Edward Hulme, p 41
Pete Loeser, 5 May 2013

Flag hoisted at the poop (9 stripes)

Flag hoisted at the poop of H.M.S. Tiger image by Tomislav Todorovi膰, 07 May 2013

Flag hoisted at the bow

Flag hoisted at the bow of H.M.S. Tiger image by Tomislav Todorovi膰, 07 May 2013

Flags hoisted at the mastheads

Flag hoisted at the mastheads of H.M.S. Tiger image by Tomislav Todorovi膰, 07 May 2013

The flags with same design were hoisted at three mastheads of the ship.

Tudor Ensigns

Ac铆 el teniu el quadre de la invencible amb m茅s ressoluci贸 al tanto que no totes s贸n senyeres nostres..apart que la "England's flag 茅s la creu de St.George".. les de barres bermelles s贸n del Tudor (Isabel I).. origen de la bandera de la West indian Co. i despr猫s de la americana..

He marcat les que jo penso que s铆 que s贸n senyeres catalanes

Fa uns anys ja em vaig discutir amb un de la FAES anglesa per ra贸 d'aquest quadre que vaig penjar a commons reconstruit per m铆... ac铆 en teniu la prova -> senyera feta a m谩

Vull tornar a remarcar que a la Reina Verge la pinten amb una bandera molt semblant a la catalana (amb fons blanc o platejat) la que, com he dit abans, m茅s tard donaria origen a la de la "West Indian Company"

Vegeu el quadre del naufragi del galli贸 Girona, encara que modern.. 茅s important... i..聽 aquesta foto 茅s curiosa

us recopio la meva discussi贸 amb el paio de la FAES anglesa

premeu tots els hotlinks=> s贸n importants!!!

Explicaci贸 banderes

Apart de la senyera i la creu de S.Jordi .. mireu que diferent 茅s el niu de corb (cofa) de la nau amb la bandera Tudor, comparat amb els dos vaixells que he assenyalat amb senyera catalana

Heus ac铆 el punt! La creu de Sant Jordi, si apareix a una nau nostra... mai ha estat un signe castell脿 .. sin贸 catal脿! ... Felip V la va prohibir que en els decrets de Nova Planta.


I notice the article has aquired a panorama; I've moved it down, as it was too obtrusive parked in the middle of the History section. I've also converted it to a normal image file.
The caption there (and on the image) said "At least two catalan flags hoisted on two Armada ships against what it has been said officially in the spanish records" which seems prety dubious, so I've brought it here for discussion.
I presume it refers to the red-striped flag on the foreground ship; is there any evidence this flag represents Catalonia? The figure referred to as Elizabeth I has the same flag, as does the ship ahead of the galleass, together with the flag of St George; so I'd hazard a guess the flag in question represents England. And the List of ships of the Spanish Armada doesn't mention a Catalan squadron. Does anybody know any more about this? Xyl 54 (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Xyl54..First of all... there is a main difference between the Queen's flag (5 red stripes on white) & the catalan flag (4 red stripes on yellow)...
If you read thouroughtly this you will learn why it may exist St.George cross and the catalan flag on the same ship
Lord Howard in Ark Royal versus the Duke of Medina Sidonia in San Martin

Both ships share the red cross on a white background, the symbol of crusader and St George

Well! here is the point! St.George's cross has never been a Castilian sign.. but.. a Catalan sign!... Philip V has banned it in the Nueva Planta decrees.
Flags explanation... besides.. look how different is the Crow's nest of the ship with the Tudor flag, from the two ships I've pointed as catalan
St.George cross in Lepanto
St.George cross with Jaume I
I have a bunch of books prior to 1969 that in the list of armada ships do not mention La Girona (can it be more catalan?), of course after the wreck was found they couldn't deny it.. but saying the name came from his owner, someone undocumented called Gir贸n
Mixture of St.George cross with catalan flags...England won..the ship that's sinking half top-left.. must be spanish.. look at the flag&aft-castle&crow's nest...
--Mcapdevila (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
OK Manuel; first of all, your edits posting of the picture here, and on Commons, look like you are trying to make a point, and are contrary to WP policy on maintaining a neutral point of view.
As far as this article is concerned it was the armada of the King of Spain and "was composed of 151 ships, 8,000 sailors and 18,000 soldiers, and bore 1,500 brass guns and 1,000 iron guns"; where they came from, and where their crews were born, is not an issue for this article, though it might be relevant at the "List of Ships" article. If you have a reliable English language source that describes a Catalan squadron in the Armada, or lists some specifically Catalan ships, then you should suggest it鈥檚 addition on the talkpage there.
The issue for this article is whether it is improved by the addition of a panoramic view of Senyeres鈥 painting, which I鈥檇 say is borderline. I鈥檝e made some improvements to the arrangement and positioning of it, but what it does not need is a caption seeking to make some point about Catalan nationalism. Do you see? Xyl 54 (talk) 14:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Gravelines coast with no cliffs.

鈥 Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcapdevila (talkcontribs) 18:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This is just a sample of the tipical Cornwall coastline with cliffs

Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcapdevila (talkcontribs) 18:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

(I've moved these down, per Talk page guidelines; contributions should be in chronological order. Second image converted to File, and signed using "unsigned" template. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC))

What are you trying to say here, exactly? Xyl 54 (talk) 13:51, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

So now the caption reads
"A painting of Nicholas Hilliard (who fought in the battle), showing the "Invincible Armada" sailing off the "cliffs" of the coast of Cornwall (mistaken by some authors, for the Gravelines coast, wich has no "cliffs" at all). At least two Spanish flags hoisted on two Armada ships, one in the center of the picture. (Not to be confused with that of Elizabeth I watching from ashore)."
which is pretty pointy.
It is also Original Research; what is the source for any of the statements made? The only neutral thing that can be said out of this is that it is a painting by Nicholas Hilliard, and that it depicts the Armada.
So I suggest the caption "鈥淭he Armada鈥 by Nicholas Hilliard". OK? Xyl 54 (talk) 13:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I have removed all catalan references so please stop talking about INH whatsoever..
I have no references for Plymouth (although obvious) but I inserted the refs. for "red+and+yellow+spanish+ensign" do you want more? Relating to the "borderline" you stated.. I will add that "Una, grande y libre ended in 1978..thanks for your impartiality (when you said it was an english flag you were not impartial at all..)--Mcapdevila (talk) 14:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
You need to stop edit warring over this, and come to an agreement.
And thank you for the reference, but you are missing the point.
You've stated that this is 鈥the "Invincible Armada" sailing off the "cliffs" of the coast of Cornwall鈥 and that some authors 鈥mistakenly鈥 say these are the Gravelines coast; however plausible your reasoning, it is Original Research unless you can back it up. This (at the BBC website) calls it 鈥淭he Battle of Gravelines鈥 as does your reference which states 鈥渋t must be the battle of Gravelines鈥 (p129).
You also say this is 鈥a painting of Nicholas Hilliard鈥 (which I鈥檇 accepted), though your ref says this 鈥渃annot be supported鈥 (p126); you also say that he 鈥fought in the battle鈥; where is your evidence of that?
Also, your comments in the article, about my query over the English flag, is editing to make a point; those comments should have been made here. And I've no idea what your comment about 1978 is supposed to mean, but my comment about the image being "borderline" is colloquial; it means I felt the value of the image to the article is marginal, particularly if it is going to be a cause of conlict; if that is the case we can probably do without it.
As for the rest of your caption, the image is supposed to illustrate the subject; I fail to see the importance of pointing out that two of the Spanish ships are flying Spanish flags or that Elizabeth I is standing by an English flag.
Your reference (p123) states the painting is 鈥淓lizabeth I and the Spanish Armada鈥 and is attributed to the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries; my ref says it is 鈥淭he Battle of Gravelines鈥 by Nicholas Hilliard; which caption do you want to use? Xyl 54 (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I couldn't express with more concise words the reference I've contributed with the superb work carried out by Karen Hearn. I've modified the last reference with my original reference of page 129 that explains much better the "Gravelines" choice for the title.--Mcapdevila (talk) 05:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough, your reference is better, there; it takes the reader to the description, without having to comb the article for it. Are you happy with the caption as it stands, now? Xyl 54 (talk) 12:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
I've said your caption is brilliant, but you didn't know how to differentiate a Catalan flag from an english flag in those paintings (as all my colleagues at INH.cat do but the other way round). I know a little about it for I've been studying the Armada since 1971. I arrived at Cowes as a Baron Yachting Instruments service engineer in 1971, and one of my coleagues shouted at me "Hi wog.. how is your fleet since the last time we sunked it? Here came my interest about it.. I've been sailing along all the southern coast with my good friend Rodney Pattisson so I know most of it-- (talk) 16:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)..Sorry..my IP..
Therefore one day I will make an article to teach people how to differenciate them, this is the goal of wikipedia isn't it? at least that was my conversation with Jimmy Wales last year at Gdansk "creating a WYSIWYG interface to allow retired professionals (lawyers, architects, etc...) editing good articles on their speciality to teach other people their knowledge".. he agreed with me and said that a WYSIWYG editor is planned for 2012.--Mcapdevila (talk) 16:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

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Comentaris publicats

  1. Manolet
    08-03-2019 13:03

    Hola Lluis, he carregat la pintura de Cadis, amb la senyera que sembla can貌nica, i que de fet va ser un atac preventiu fet per Drake abans de la invasi贸 d'Anglaterra per part de Felip II que reclamava el tron com Felip I d'Anglaterra (hi tenia dret com consort de M陋.Tudor, d'altre banda cosina de son Pare)..

    Hi ha una possibilitat, penso que:

    • Podria ser que aquest "groc tenue" fos blanc engrogit pel pas del temps.. les veles haurien de ser totes blanques i n'hi ha de blanques i de grogues (b茅 caldria comprobar-ho sobre l'original, mira't el meu article on es veu una bandera americana amb el blanc engroguit (molt evidentment) pel pas del temps.
    B茅.. "Nom茅s s茅 que no s茅 res", tot 猫s possible..

  2. Llu铆s Vilalta
    30-04-2017 19:07

    M'encantaria donar-te la ra贸, i de fet durant molt de temps jo opinava el mateix que tu a la vista del quadre objecte d'estudi... per貌 totes les presumpcions em van caure a terra com un castell de cartes, en veure aquest altre quadre de la batalla de Cadis (1608).


    En ell s'hi veuen, en primer pla, dos galions llen莽ant-se canonades. El de l'esquerra 猫s inequ矛vocament espanyol, mentre que el de la dreta... Coi! Una senyera can貌nica a popa!! S铆颅, per貌... tota la resta d'elements identificatius del gali贸 a la dreta de la imatge s贸n anglesos. A popa llueix l'escut reial angl猫s, la bandera de pal major 茅s la reial d'Anglaterra, i les de trinquet i mesana s贸n de Sant Jordi. I aix貌 tira per terra les nostres presumpcions respecte al quadre que comentes de la Spanish Armada.

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