25-07-2014  (3784 lectures) Categoria: Marina

Els colors del Guisa i la invencible (Charles V d'Anjou)

Els colors dels Guisa procedents d'Hongria a través del nostre rei René passen a Escòcia amb els Estuard

i a UK amb Jacobo I Estuard

Fa anys que explico a qui m'ho pregunta que les senyeres de l'epoca Tudor sobre fons platejat o blanc eren angleses (vegeu detall més avall) Són l'origen de la bandera de la West indian Co. i més tard de la bandera americana..

Per mostrar la diferencia amb la nostra vaig escanejar un llibre meu comprat a Foyles als anys 80. (té una miqueta de moirè -interferència entre retícules-..)

Quadre escanejat on hi manca part de la senyera (llom del llibre) by M.C.

 

Senyera re-creada amb copy paste per  M.C.

 

Quadre amb menys ressolució on no hi manca la part de la senyera

 

Explicació by M.C.




 

Tudor Ensigns with red and white stripes

Source: These flags were shown on a painting of the H.M.S. Tiger by Van de Velde
The Flags of the World (1896) by Frederick Edward Hulme, p 41
Pete Loeser, 5 May 2013

Flag hoisted at the poop (9 stripes)

Flag hoisted at the poop of H.M.S. Tiger image by Tomislav Todorović, 07 May 2013

 

Flag hoisted at the bow

Flag hoisted at the bow of H.M.S. Tiger image by Tomislav Todorović, 07 May 2013

 

Flags hoisted at the mastheads

Flag hoisted at the mastheads of H.M.S. Tiger image by Tomislav Todorović, 07 May 2013

The flags with same design were hoisted at three mastheads of the ship.


Tudor Ensigns

 




Ací el teniu el quadre de la invencible amb més ressolució al tanto que no totes són senyeres nostres..apart que la "England's flag és la creu de St.George".. les de barres bermelles són del Tudor (Isabel I).. origen de la bandera de la West indian Co. i desprès de la americana..

He marcat les que jo penso que sí que són senyeres catalanes

Fa uns anys ja em vaig discutir amb un de la FAES anglesa per raó d'aquest quadre que vaig penjar a commons reconstruit per mí... ací en teniu la prova -> senyera feta a má

Vull tornar a remarcar que a la Reina Verge la pinten amb una bandera molt semblant a la catalana (amb fons blanc o platejat) la que, com he dit abans, més tard donaria origen a la de la "West Indian Company"

Vegeu el quadre del naufragi del gallió Girona, encara que modern.. és important... i..  aquesta foto és curiosa

us recopio la meva discussió amb el paio de la FAES anglesa

premeu tots els hotlinks=> són importants!!!


Explicació banderes

Apart de la senyera i la creu de S.Jordi .. mireu que diferent és el niu de corb (cofa) de la nau amb la bandera Tudor, comparat amb els dos vaixells que he assenyalat amb senyera catalana

Heus ací el punt! La creu de Sant Jordi, si apareix a una nau nostra... mai ha estat un signe castellà .. sinó català! ... Felip V la va prohibir que en els decrets de Nova Planta.




Panorama


I notice the article has aquired a panorama; I've moved it down, as it was too obtrusive parked in the middle of the History section. I've also converted it to a normal image file.
The caption there (and on the image) said "At least two catalan flags hoisted on two Armada ships against what it has been said officially in the spanish records" which seems prety dubious, so I've brought it here for discussion.
I presume it refers to the red-striped flag on the foreground ship; is there any evidence this flag represents Catalonia? The figure referred to as Elizabeth I has the same flag, as does the ship ahead of the galleass, together with the flag of St George; so I'd hazard a guess the flag in question represents England. And the List of ships of the Spanish Armada doesn't mention a Catalan squadron. Does anybody know any more about this? Xyl 54 (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Xyl54..First of all... there is a main difference between the Queen's flag (5 red stripes on white) & the catalan flag (4 red stripes on yellow)...
If you read thouroughtly this you will learn why it may exist St.George cross and the catalan flag on the same ship
“ Lord Howard in Ark Royal versus the Duke of Medina Sidonia in San Martin

Both ships share the red cross on a white background, the symbol of crusader and St George

”
Well! here is the point! St.George's cross has never been a Castilian sign.. but.. a Catalan sign!... Philip V has banned it in the Nueva Planta decrees.
Flags explanation... besides.. look how different is the Crow's nest of the ship with the Tudor flag, from the two ships I've pointed as catalan
St.George cross in Lepanto
St.George cross with Jaume I
I have a bunch of books prior to 1969 that in the list of armada ships do not mention La Girona (can it be more catalan?), of course after the wreck was found they couldn't deny it.. but saying the name came from his owner, someone undocumented called Girón
Mixture of St.George cross with catalan flags...England won..the ship that's sinking half top-left.. must be spanish.. look at the flag&aft-castle&crow's nest...
--Mcapdevila (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
OK Manuel; first of all, your edits posting of the picture here, and on Commons, look like you are trying to make a point, and are contrary to WP policy on maintaining a neutral point of view.
As far as this article is concerned it was the armada of the King of Spain and "was composed of 151 ships, 8,000 sailors and 18,000 soldiers, and bore 1,500 brass guns and 1,000 iron guns"; where they came from, and where their crews were born, is not an issue for this article, though it might be relevant at the "List of Ships" article. If you have a reliable English language source that describes a Catalan squadron in the Armada, or lists some specifically Catalan ships, then you should suggest it’s addition on the talkpage there.
The issue for this article is whether it is improved by the addition of a panoramic view of Senyeres’ painting, which I’d say is borderline. I’ve made some improvements to the arrangement and positioning of it, but what it does not need is a caption seeking to make some point about Catalan nationalism. Do you see? Xyl 54 (talk) 14:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Gravelines coast with no cliffs.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcapdevila (talk • contribs) 18:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This is just a sample of the tipical Cornwall coastline with cliffs

Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcapdevila (talk • contribs) 18:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

(I've moved these down, per Talk page guidelines; contributions should be in chronological order. Second image converted to File, and signed using "unsigned" template. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC))

What are you trying to say here, exactly? Xyl 54 (talk) 13:51, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

So now the caption reads
"A painting of Nicholas Hilliard (who fought in the battle), showing the "Invincible Armada" sailing off the "cliffs" of the coast of Cornwall (mistaken by some authors, for the Gravelines coast, wich has no "cliffs" at all). At least two Spanish flags hoisted on two Armada ships, one in the center of the picture. (Not to be confused with that of Elizabeth I watching from ashore)."
which is pretty pointy.
It is also Original Research; what is the source for any of the statements made? The only neutral thing that can be said out of this is that it is a painting by Nicholas Hilliard, and that it depicts the Armada.
So I suggest the caption "“The Armada” by Nicholas Hilliard". OK? Xyl 54 (talk) 13:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I have removed all catalan references so please stop talking about INH whatsoever..
I have no references for Plymouth (although obvious) but I inserted the refs. for "red+and+yellow+spanish+ensign" do you want more? Relating to the "borderline" you stated.. I will add that "Una, grande y libre ended in 1978..thanks for your impartiality (when you said it was an english flag you were not impartial at all..)--Mcapdevila (talk) 14:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
You need to stop edit warring over this, and come to an agreement.
And thank you for the reference, but you are missing the point.
You've stated that this is “the "Invincible Armada" sailing off the "cliffs" of the coast of Cornwall” and that some authors “mistakenly” say these are the Gravelines coast; how




2014-10-20 10:44 GMT+02:00 Manel Capdevila <mcapdevila@gmail.com>:

Són els colors Hongria part d'Àustria-Hongria

el quarter de dalt a la dreta de l' Archiduc Carles
















que també apareix en els anjou.Guisa-Estuard

Archivo:Margaret of Anjou Arms.svg




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