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23-05-2010  (14859 lectures) Categoria: Ciao

ciao vs. siau

Joan Calsapeu echoed the possible Catalan affiliation of "ciao" health, saying: "." First Manel Capdevila, and then Frank Dubé and Jordi Bilbeny, proposed that the Italian word can come from the Catalan siau. All three alleged the long Catalan presence in Italy and doubted the schiavo>ciao passage, advocated so far by Italian philology."

Article:

When I met Jordi Forch in 1979 when I heard him use "siau" as a farewell, I asked him: "do you say it as grandparents in the country or as the equivalent of the Italian ciao? and he told me... "Italians who say whatever they want, but now that you make the parallel with the Italian languages, you may be right because in "milanese" they also say "nem'o" equivalent to our "nem-hi".. I actually copy the grandparents, but in my case, the reason for using this second part of the greeting ("ab-deu siau"), is that I do not mean the first half that is too religious.""

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A-deu-siau/A-dio-ciao

I take it for granted that it is of all known that grandparents - especially farmers - use the "siau" or even "apa siau" but, according to Jordi.. I add the question. "It would not be possible for the custom to say, "Siau/Ciao" had its origin in an "anti-religious" abbreviation. goodbye ("ab deu siau") not wanting to pronounce the first half of the expression: A-deu/Ad-dio"?

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Article published on 2 November 2007

This study was re-enthrcled by an argument with a Spanish friend of Pucela's. He "pushed" himself that the "a" of "a" was the imperative of "haber" (ha Dios!). I explained to him that "a" was preposition, that although in French the "a" of "adieu", could come from "avoir", in the rest of the languages it can not be: in Italian it would be "habete" and in Catalan "habed" (even in Spanish it would be "habed"). This is tested by the fact that in the other equivalent Spanish expression it is also a preposition: "con Dios" abbreviation of "estad con Dios" or "remaind con Dios".

In addition, to the equivalent expression in Catalan "goodbye" (ab-deu) , "a" comes from "ab" which is also preposition, (that is, in general in all Christian Romance languages, which use be or are with "God" as greetings : adieu, addio, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye), to all of them would come from the Latin "ab".

In Catalan, the complete expression that gives "goodbye" is "a-deu-siau" (of "amb ten siau" - "ab deu siau"), which abbreviated by the right gives us "siau", and by parelism between sister languages, in Italian, the expression that would give "addio" should be "a-dio-ciao", which was abbreviated by the right gave "ciao". -Equivalent to the German "tschüß/tschau" which in fact derives better from "siau" than from "ciao" -.

This is where the inspiration came to me to explain the resemblance of the Italian "ciao" with the Catalan "siau", which has danced in my head all my life, because the correct Italian expression would never be "a dio ciao" but: "a dio siate" better said "con dio siate" (or: con-dio-state / a-dio-habete).

The imperative form "ciao" is not Tuscan. "Ciao" can never come from the imperative forms "siate-state-habete" but by parelism with the Catalan "siau" derived from "be". The origin of "ciao", we should look for it, therefore, outside where it would be called "a-dio-siate" (Tuscany=> current Italian), that is, to places of Catalan influence; Neapolitan, Sicilian, Catalan Naples, Duchy of Saboia-Piedmont, Milanese, Sicily, Sardinia, Burgundy Rome, seaside republics: (Genoa or Venice) or all of them folded, that is, in Catalan.

Italian dictionaries say that "ciao" comes from Goldoni's time in the 18th
centuryFont: Italian encyclopedia TreccaniCiao

. interiezione [voce di origine veneta- da s-ciao, s-ciavo, propr. " (sono vostro) schiavo"]. - Form di saluto amichevole, a tempo frequente soprattutto nell'Italia settentr., ora diffusa dappertutto; equivale ad addio, ma, oltre che nel lasciarsi, if you use anche nell'incontrarsi (meno spesso nella chiusa di lettere, dove è molto confidenziale). Con riferimento a bambini, fare "ciao", fare cenni di saluto aprendo e chiudendo la manina.

In Roussillon "adieu" is also used to say "hello"

The fact that in Italian the "ciao" is used both to say hello or goodbye, has an antecedent in Catalonia... in Roussillon "adieu" is also used to say "hello", in the same context as the Italian "ciao":
"Adieu pour bonjour, bonsoir ou bonne nuit. A camaraderie who tackles an autre says : Ha! Goodbye, how's it going? l'autre répondra : hou ! goodbye, it's wrong!"

http://webs.racocatala.cat/eltalp/mias1.htm

http://bibiloni.cat/blog/?p=872



http://www.racocatala.cat/forums/fil/93391/cada-cop-diu-menys-adeu-acomiadar-se 1st Version of Treccani-Originally

, the word was slavery in Latin. In 18th century, Carlo Goldoni -- the Italian Molière -- used it in the derivative form schiavo..: "sono vostro schiavo". Eventually, the pronunciation "changed" and "ciao" was a greeting-Rubbing

my eyes in disbelief." Anyone with two forehead fingers, sees that it is impossible for "ciao" to come from "schiavo" or "chi" sounds "ki" ("who" in Catalan) , passing in divine order to "Tshi" ("Chi" in Catalan). This change would take quite a few centuries. On the other hand, a sound "yes" can easily pass to "tshi" (there is a diction defect that consists of this change).

They also see a parallel with the Austrian "servus" (server). Coincidentally, the original "slave" (as well as the related "clavum") => "schiavo","chiavo" and countless others with the "K" sion, have not given a single word derived with the soy "TSHI", and have a stack of them. This "e well found" ma non puó essere vero (does not pass the Ockham razor test).

2nd Version of TreccaniFor


defending themselves from this thesis they have corrected their saying that the Venetian "sciavo" sounds "sXiavo" but even if they have added it.. this argument has no strength .. since Goldoni is famous in the Tuscan language not in Venetian.

Apart from all this, the custom of using as a greeting of arrival and farewell should have been changed, the "ab-Deo" of the Christian Romance languages (substitute for the Roman "salve"), for "sono vostro schiavo", which is unlikely since to despedirse they still use "addio" (as in all these Christian languages), which as I said before, it is the other abbreviation of the complete health "ab Dio ciao", equivalent to the "ciao" of the "bella ciao". In Castile the "con Dios" has also been used to say hello and goodbye, as has the "Alla sia with you" of the Saracens, the "shalom" of the Jews, the "salve" of the Romans, the "aloha" of Hawaii or so many others as the German "tschüß/tschau", which in fact derives better from "siau" than "siau" - not "siau" - rather than "siau."

The parallel in the way of greeting the European countries, which I use as the basis of my reasoning, we do not have it only with: addio, goodbye, goodbye, but also with: A rivederci, A reveure, Au revoir, Au vie der sehen, See you...

The problem is that Italy as a nation is 150 years old, and its history had to be reinvented (especially during fascism), in 1861 Catalonia (which dominated the important parts of Italy for about 400 years), still slept the sleep caused by the Bourbon, and could not defend its things, so the Italians took everything from us, and the Castilians (except Julio Rey Pastor and some others) have followed the game:

  • Columbus (no explanation needed)
  • The Cartography: Poor Angelino Dulcert says it is Dallorto badly written!, Petrus Rosselli=> Italian (his disciple and himself, they say he is Pere Rossell of Mallorca)
  • Gunpowder: They say it comes from the Italian "polveri" (Coromines documents the powders of women in Catalan in the 12th century)
  • The bombardier: They say they are the first to use it => Lombarda (Arantegui Sanz documents that we were the Catalans)
  • The archbishop : According to them it is Italiá because it comes from the Italian "arco-buggio" (I say that comes from the Catalan arc-ab-burs, "burs = shake" is not too well known but "pull bursada" yes)
  • The shotgun: They say it comes from schioppo=> explosion
  • The gun: They say it comes from the city "pistolia"

Please! we use common sense, the argument is very easy, if the Italian republics had had all these weapons they would have conquered Catalonia, and it was exactly the other way around!

In short, and returning to the theme "ciao"; Do not hesitate the "ciao" is the abbreviation for the right of "a-dio-ciao" (as in Catalan), even if the Italians do not know, or do not want to acknowledge it, (because the root of "ciao" cannot come from Italian tuscany). The proof of the parallel with the "siau" is, as I said before, the fact that they have the expression abbreviated by the left "addio", to say goodbye, like the rest of the Romance languages.

Epilogue

At the beginning of the study a few years ago, he said that it was necessary to look in areas of Catalan influence, since the parallelism, both semantic and phonetic, between "ciao" and "siau" was clear. In Argentina, Peru and Uruguay they say "chau" instead of "chao", and the last and largest, the Inuit of Labrador also say "chau" and it is precisely where Joan Cabot arrived in the fifteenth century.

The influence of Catalan in the Italian language is proportional to the Catalan influence in Italy. This Christmas I was at Ticino with a boyfriend from Milan who spoke to me in "milanese", which looks more like Catalan than Italian. For example, they use the expression "Oh, it's OK" as in Catalan, in the style of Swiss "Romansh," or Emilia Romagna's Emilia Romanyol.

It should be noted in a special way that Milanese also say "nem'o" exactly equivalent to our "nem-hi" (let's go there)

"EUREKA! DEO GRATIAS!, I thought I would never find it!", I found some expressions that make it clear that the Italian ciao comes from the expressio (Milanese-Venetian) "A DIO S-CIAO".. an environment with possible influence of Catalan "A DEU SIAU" -we were 200 years old!- The places where they say SIAU-CHAU would be by direct influence of Catalan:


".. The word "s-ciào" is still used in Venetian and in the Lombard language as an exclamation of resignation, as in: O, va be', s-ciào! ("Oh, well, never mind!").

In Catalan: O, it's good, be it! (s-ciào!=sia!)

".. In Milanese proverb/tongue-twister says: Se gh'inn gh'inn gh'inn, se gh'inn no s-ciào ("if they are - meaning money - they are, if they are, not problem")."

In Catalan: Yes, there are, if there are none, yes! (s-ciào!=sia!)


Italian scholars accept that the expression "sào" came from the north, but what makes no sense is to say that "s-ciào" comes from "schiavo", when in both cases it is clear that it is not a greeting, and that it can be replaced by our imperative "sia", maintaining the meaning they give it: O, it's good,' he said. => Or, it's ok, be it! ("Oh, it's OK, it's so!"), but it doesn't make sense if we replace it with "schiavo."

These are gifts of a parallel between sister languages (Catalan-Milanese-Venetian), the problem is that by considering dialects venetian and Milanese, they betrayed themselves orally and do not know their grammar, that is, they know the meaning of the phrase but do not get to grasp what kind of word they use (if it is a verb, in what time), That is why they do not know how to explain it well and accept that it comes from "sciavo/schiavo" as the one who nothing.

the Austrians did it from 1714 to 1860, but the last 100 years with a very strong anti-Austrian sentiment, think of Verdi's Nabucco hearts, and I don't think there was "breeding ground" to transfer the expression "servus" =>"sciavo"=> "ciao", apart from the catalan could very well influence the "Milanese", but it was difficult for the German to do it, too far.

Since the form (or sound) "s-ciao" does not exist in Tuscan, but it does exist in the "Milanese-Venetian", "Ciao" must come from the "s-ciào" derived from the expression "a-dio s-ciào!" and not "sciavo". Given that the fact that it can be explained from Catalan and nobody has found any other reliable explanation, having to resort to "sciavo", it reveals the possible influence of our language in Lombardia, where we were for 200 years, or at least a parallel in colloquial twists, .

In short, although it is difficult to demonstrate the influence of Catalan in the case of "ciao" (since it would have been going through the "Milanese-Venetian").. in the case of terms with the sound "u" common to places by the sea, that is: "siau, chau, çau..", whether we apply Chapman-Kolmogorov's law or Ockham's razor. wins the Catalan origin!...


Selection of places with the so similar to "siau". all next to the SEA..

  • Amharic : ቻው, Chaw ( "goodbye")
  • Catalánsed ( "goodbye")
  • BosnianCao ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Czechcae ( "hello" oro "goodbye") and cae cae (goodbye)
  • Dutchciao ( "goodbye")
  • Englishciao ( "goodbye")
  • Esperantocae ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Estonian : "tšau", also "tšauki" - sometimes pronounced with "s" ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Finnish : "tsau", also "tsaukki" ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Frenchciao, Tchao (Mostly used to say "goodbye"). "Tchao", in French is argótico. In 1983, this word was used in the title of a very popular movie: " So long, Stooge ", in French: "Tchao, pantin".
  • Germanciao, tschau ( "goodbye", in Switzerland also "hello")
  • Greek : τσάο, Tsao ( "goodbye")
  • Hebrew : צ'או chao ( "goodbye")
  • Hungariancsáó oro the more informal CSA oro CSO ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Interlinguaciao ( "goodbye")
  • Italianciao ( "hello", "hi" oro "goodbye") also "ciao ciao" (bye bye).
  • Japanese :チャオ, chao ( "hello" oro "hay") alsoチャオチャオchao chao (bye bye).
  • Latviancae ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Lithuaniančiau ( "goodbye", rarely "hello")
  • Macedonian : чао, Cao ( "goodbye")
  • Malay : چاو دولو, cae dulu ( "goodbye"); used informally in Malaysia by the leaving party. The word "cae" can be used informally as a verbo which means "leave"
  • MalteseCAW ( "goodbye"); also CAW CAW ( "bye bye")
  • Serbian : ћао, Cao ( "goodbye" oro "hello")
  • Polishciao Plantilla: IPA-pl (rare)
  • Portuguesetchau ( "goodbye"), tchau tchau ( "bye bye"), oro tchauzinho ( "little bye"); in Portugal xau is also used, without the "t" sound, especially in written informal language such as SMS oro web chats
  • Romanianciao ( "hello" oro "goodbye"); it is often written as CEAU although this form is not officially in the Romanian vocabulary
  • Russian : чау, чао, chao; ( "Goodbye"); also jokingly - чао-какао, chao-Kaká (from чай - "tea" and какао - "cocoa")
  • CroatianCao ( "goodbye" oro "hello")
  • Sicilianciau ( "hello", "hi")
  • Slovakcae (Variations: čauko, cavas, čauky, CAF); Mostly as "goodbye", but stands in for "hello" primarily in informal written communication (texto messages, emails) and phone calls because it is more character-efficient / shorter and more hip than the Slovak "ahoj"
  • Slovenecae oro CAW ( "hello" oro "goodbye"); also CAW CAW ( "bye bye")
  • Somalíciao ( "goodbye")
  • Spanish : in Argentina and Uruguay the word chau is the most common expression for "goodbye". In Chilechao is the standard farewell. In Spain , where "adios" (with a religious Etymology as "goodbye") is the common expresión, people can use chao as an original way of saying goodbye.
  • Swiss-Germanciao / Tschau ( "hello" oro "goodbye")
  • Tigrinya : ቻው, Chaw ( "goodbye")
  • TurkishCAV ( "goodbye")
  • Venetianciao ( "hello" oro "goodbye")

 

Curiously after contacting some Italians receiving the "schiavo" they have given three more versions.. (it is how C. Airaldi publicly accepted that the Colombo "llaner" was noble because it had been adopted by a noble family)
*Accent versions with the sound "ci":

A. « Ai mondiali di Italia '90 il nome della mascotte, "Ciao", è stato scelto per due motivi. Perché ciao ormai è una parola internazionale conosciuta in tutto il mondo. E poi perché ciao viene da *chiao e *chiaio, forme medievali per clāru(m)... The omen of a 'luminous' giornata, anticamente... E anche di 'chiarezza' della manifestazione, volendo".

B. « Sei stato a Catania?... Quando?... And the sound, the sound. No... No. Non ironizzare tanto... sì, è così, 'servo vostro' è pratica il corrispettivo di 'ciao', sai... Solo che oggi non ci facciamo più caso...".

C.
« Nel medioevo, salutandosi, c'era l'usanza di accomiatarsi augurando l'aciāriu(m), il vero e proprio 'acciaio' (della lama). A sort di augurio apotropaico: com il moderno "in bocca al lupo": ci si augura – esorcizzando il pensiero – di venir trapassati da una spada or da un pugnale... My solo to ritually scongiurare a pericolo possibile. Da *acciàro si è avuto *acciào e poi ciào".


Manel Capdevila

Nota


: see the statement of an Italian to Joan Calsapeu..


".. Hello. I am an Italian who has lived in Barcelona for nine years and I really like everything related to Catalan, its history and its connections with my mother tongue. A week ago I was watching an Italian film where people from Puglia, a region in southern Italy, suddenly came out a siau of health. I was very shocked and I started to ask and search in which Italian dialects siau is used as a farewell greeting. Needless to say, the answers I have had point to all regions of the Catalan kingdom: Sardegna, Sicilia, Napoli, Calabria, Puglia... It appears throughout southern Italy. In some northern dialects ciau is used, with a final one, as a farewell greeting too."